TRANSCRIPT- GEORGE OATES AND KATE CHAN IN DISCUSSION

Kate: So I just came here to talk about my project, which is basically on examining culture and inbetweener culture. So you've got that perception of Culture A & Culture B. And then it's looking at the cultures in between that, because my personal opinion is that people think culture is like a bunch of points on the map, but it's more like a gradient or a spectrum, and I'm looking to those inbetweener cultures, and in doing so I've created this thing called 'frankenculture'. It uses the infamous Frankenstein's monster as a motif. Now I've been creating the multicultural willow plates that are like Frankenstein-like in conception. And I'm trying to send them out into the greater world; I'm talking to people who are experienced in the nuances of museum culture. And I'm taking their perception what they think of these plates- and how they like, play into the museum culture. Basically I'm asking for you and your expertise- your thoughts on these plates and how they play into the whole order of things within a museum.

George: Sounds good.

Kate: Yes! You can just introduce yourself, like who you are and what you do and how you made it to the museum. That would be really helpful.

George: Ok. So, my name is George Oates. I'm basically a designer of things- mostly digital things. I've never worked in a museum, but that's probably a good position for somebody like me. I've been doing software design for about 20 years and the last kind of eight or nine years, I've been drawn towards the cultural sector- so working with museums, and library archives all around the world to help them sort of move into the 21st century with good software tools and trying to expose them to the open access approach, and also just sort of increasing access using sort of... web technology.

Kate: That is interesting, because that's what I'm trying to point out with these plates. I'm trying to increase the visibility of things, like museums that you see in their cultural classifications. When I went to museums like British Museum or the V & A, I see them like- separating cultures into... some like geographical classifications and time based classifications. But I think there's a false impression because cultures interact through time, that's how culture evolves. But then it's very hard for museums to replicate that in their organization [of artefacts], so that's how these plates came from. So, what was your first impression of these plates as someone who works with museums? Just in general?

George: Yeah. My first impression is I really like them, because they're adopting a known form and twisting it in a clever way. I think they are aesthetically pleasing, which is good.

Kate: It's like the ones in the museum?

George: Yeah and I feel something of a personal connection to them because there's stuff in there that I recognise- stuff like the Coles, because they are really [Australian] you know. But I also recognise the form- from, having enough plates like this, and all kinds of places do. So I really like how you sort of appropriated that and modernized it and they look great.

Kate: So, these plates are actually based on the classical english willow patterns. So they're- especially in the border. The pattern is exactly the same from the original willow plate's design elements, but it differs from the original- for example, this pattern takes from Dreamtime artworks.

George: Oh yeah... Yeah!

Kate: I‘m trying to... as you say, I'm trying to take a new form and change it to something different. These plates sort of sit halfway between what I call mainstream culture and frankenculture which is definitely not mainstream culture. When I say frankenculture, I mean that someone like me who's grown up in more than one culture who might be pulled in different directions. And we don't necessarily, you know- see representations of our culture in museums.Like, listening to them talking a lot about these cultures- We are often seen as merely extraneous bit of culture, and that's unfair. I realize I'm rambling a bit here...

George: It's all good. It's interesting.

Kate: And did you work as a museum curator?

George: [laughter] I never will!

Kate: How, where and why would you place these entities in a museum based context? How would you put them in the context of a museum?

George: That's a tough question, yes.

Kate: Certainly, I feel you! Curators have been refusing to meet me. 20 emails and nothing...

George: I know! They're just always constantly busy. Well I guess this is just a off-cuff personal suggestion. One thing one thing I really enjoy often in museums is contrast you know or establishing... evolution of a technique or an idea by using the distance from the first to the last. And I think this kind of you know, demonstrating by having this pull this away from the traditional designs can be one quite simple, interesting way to do it. There's possibly others who've done similar work as well- maybe not even in this form. But just taking in a traditional idea and stretching it, I think, is just a generally interesting technique. You also used digital techniques with this kind of false perceptive stuff that's kind of you know it's definitely a bit stylistic. So you could also place this against... some of the great graphic cards coming out in the 90's that looks kind of the same.

Kate: The interesting question- is this more of a cultural artefact or is it more of an art piece? That's the question.

George: I tend not to make that distinction very much. I mean some people like to make a distinction between art and craft. You know, if there's a tool that's been made for a long long time- that lots of people know how to make. Maybe that's less of an artwork and more of something that's functional. But this can be both you know, if you're willing to eat off them. But I don't know the answer to that question. That's a very personal question, I would think.

Kate: Definitely.

George: Yeah. I mean just off the cuff, I would say these are art because you're asking questions with them you know. It's not- it's not about eating you know, [laughter] but they still have their function. So, I don't know.

Kate: Yeah it's interesting. I think it depends on how... Because you see I've twisted the form, it makes you feel like that you should treat it differently because the argument is that a willow plate- those ones you use in your grandma's cabinet. These are technically sort of like an artefact, rather than an art piece.

George: Sure.

Kate: It's not something you'll find in an art gallery. But because of the difference in those items... you might feel compelled to find it in a gallery because of that.

George: Yeah. Well, I think most humans collect something as well. Whether it's beautiful plates, or elephants, or books, or whatever. I think most humans in their homes have some kind of arrangement of things they enjoy. So, some people would say to that collection in itself is an important artefact to reflect the person. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be in a museum but then it comes back to the curator. You can imagine the Goldsmiths Design course having an archive, or a museum that represents the students. And in that case, you could see something that is unique because it's a product of you, and your thinking and the school. So in that case it would make easy sense you know.

Kate: It's quite hard though, because I think when you talk about the Goldsmiths archive. The Goldsmiths archive is sort of like a situation where I am allowed to access to that archive- I might be able to put things into it, because I'm a student of Goldsmiths on their design course, and therefore I 'fulfil' all their requirements. Would that be so if you think about it like the museum context? A museum is sort of like a collection of all the things in human history. Why can't I put stuff in there?

George: Well... [laughs]

Kate: Because I'm getting the impression that you're not sure if they [the plates] can't exist in a museum I don't mind that- that's a valid statement- but I'm also interested in why you think this is a more personal thing than a museum thing.

George: Oh it's not that, it's not that. I think they can easily exist in a museum context but if you're... So, the British Museum curators- they collect stuff that they're interested in. Every curator is given the task of acquiring objects for the museum. And you know they can only acquire stuff but I think a lot of curators choose to acquire stuff that's following ideas and things in their own head or sometimes they're going to add to the collection to make the collection that's already there better. You know like I found as one curator at the British Museum who's collecting Chinese New Year artefacts from London. So you know all this stuff- you know this money that you burn, you know, costumes, the things that are made of paper. And now the British Museum has this huge set of stuff, year on year for less than 10 years of stuff that is produced by the parades in Chinatown. You know so that's a pretty... It would...

Kate: It's a pretty unconventional topic for collection, I think. That's interesting. So you see the great museums of the world. All of their content is determined by a certain group of people who have certain interests. And if you're not you're not within that scope of interest, you might not be able to get your thing into the museum?

George: Broadly, yeah. But I mean not, just not just the British Museum- and I think lots of museums operate like that. Some, some have sort of impressed rules about how they should be collecting. Like maybe it's a council, for example, would be generally encouraged to collect items that are about that locality. But I don't know. I don't think it's very useful to compare the British Museum to other museums actually, because it's so big it has such a gravitational pull and such a weird history- such a weird imperial history, that you know. To say that you should use that as a standard, is I think a dangerous direction, because it's such a gigantic beast in the world museums. You might want to move your gaze to smaller, more eclectic museums, who have a lot more freedom and dynamism- in the stuff that they can collect, and the stories they can tell. The British Museum is so exceptional, I try not to use that as any kind of marker.

Kate: The main reason I've been looking at the British Museum is because to the layman, The British Museum's always gonna be like the biggest museum or the museum that they're most likely to go to, when you come to the UK. I was working in a UK based context.

George: Sure.

Kate: Just in the UK. So I'm just wondering... In terms of the artefact plate, the British Museum has like the biggest ability to reach out to those layman, but those smaller museums have more freedom in their reach?

George: It's a big tourist destination. The British Museum has artefacts from so many places in the whole world. I mean it's- it's huge and unique because of that. But you could also compare the Smithsonian Institution in the United States, which is also huge. They have a lot of American artefacts, but they also have stuff from all over. A lot of the big American universities also have really interesting imperial collections like Yale, and Harvard, and the Metropolitan Museum of Art. There's lots of big European museums. I mean not collections as big as the British Museum- but they're attempting this sort of encyclopaedic- you know, you have to have a bit of everything, to topple the British.

Kate: That's a good point. So when I say layman- I mean someone who- just sort of accepts it. Someone who walks into a museum and doesn't necessary have any cultural experience, but they just want to see stuff. And the interaction with the objects is limited to - to seeing objects. You know obviously within a museum-based context, which means that it's probably gonna be like a wall or something- or other similar stuff around it, or however the creator chooses to create it. And then you've got the little plaque. And I wanna compare that sort of layman museum experience to this experience, like you're talking of me in person about these items. Yeah. I gave you the dossier, and I'm talking to you about my project that's on inbetweener cultures. How do you think your experience with these items, and a layman's might differ, if you saw these items within the museum?

George: I can't answer that. I'm not a layman. [laughs]

Kate: Yes that's fine.

George: I mean, I would say having the opportunity to speak with the creator of the work in a museum- that's you... That's really special. You know, it would be a great museum experience if the artist is sitting next to the things hanging on the wall. So you can also have an interesting experience in the museum, if you can talk to somebody who's directly involved in the work of putting that stuff- on display. And that never happens to the British Museum. But very often, it happens at small museums. You know, you can actually meet the people who designed this stuff.

Kate: You know, I think it's like that sense of intimacy that I'm wondering about- because the British Museum... I think it's lost that small intimacy that makes small museums...?

George: Yeah. There isn't any. It's designed to be grand. I mean look at the frontages, like you know- "we are the best museum of the planet"!

Kate: [laughs] It is designed to almost like look down on you.

George: Absolutely yeah. Well because I mean it was formed around the time- the time the British Empire was going nuts. You know, mid 1700s, for the next 200 years, the British Empire's basic goal was to steal culture from the whole planet, and stick it in the museum. [laughing] I mean you can read the British Museum like that really easily. It's just- you know- if that's the case, then this is an actual reflection of the power of the British Empire.

Kate: Well, not anymore... But okay.

George: [laughter] You know you're right. It's...

Kate: But maybe that's just my bias...

George: Well. That's that's a really interesting point because you can't- the day to day contemporary collecting activity of the British Museum is not visible, you've just got these galleries- that you know, there's the sarcophagus, there's the Rosetta Stone. These sort of trophy objects are resplendent, but you can't see what the curators are really doing.

Kate: It's very interesting, because you were talking about Chinese New Year paper.

George: Yeah.

Kate: I've never heard of anything about it! I know that this thing is a very closed ecosystem- and then all the things they choose to display are very dated objects... I feel the question is why would they choose to display only dated objects. Is that- they're stuck back in when British Empire was great?

George: Well I would debate the point in the middle- they only show industrial things. I mean they... you know, the life and death gallery is kind of an interesting one. That's got- it's got reflections on death from around the world, some of which are pretty contemporary artworks.

Kate: That's true.

George: They've got Grayson Perry in the collection you know. I mean, the modern stuff does sneak out every now and again, you know.

Kate: That's true.

George: But they also got these power objects- you know, like Rosetta Stone, to the lions and you know Rameses II. But all this stuff- I mean there's this sort of crazy powerful things you know, because they're the actual thing.

Kate: They harken back to their great empires, and things that have fallen, but they're still with the British empire. It is interesting. And you know the Rosetta Stone, and models and Egyptian artefacts, are always particularly interesting to me because they're so old. Also it's really tricky just culturally- keeping those items in Britain rather than in Egypt.

George: That's tricky, isn't it?

Kate: Yeah. But also, the counterargument is that these items are actually still around because they're in the UK rather than in Egypt! So...

George: Yeah. Well that comes back to your work, I think. You know- how can you... how do you establish this spectrum between the collecting, time, and place and the object's location now? I created this really fun little installation called the Small Museum which is about Hoa Hakananai'a [Easter Island statue]. I can get you a version of him.

Kate: Sure.

George: So one of his official names is "Hoa Hakananai'a". You can also call him 'wavebreaker'. But he's installed in that life and death gallery I mentioned. If you go right through the giant great court, into the room directly opposite the front door you'll see him.

Kate: I think I saw him more than once.

George: Yes.

Kate: I didn't really pay attention. [laughs sheepishly]

George: I've forgot the point I was gonna make [laughing]

Kate: How does this work?

George: I can show you that after. That's called museum in a box. I can't remember why I was going on about that. Oh, it's about the new project we did at Somerset House. We made an installation that actually tried to demonstrate that journey between where he was, you know in the earth on Easter Island- and his current position in the British Museum. So we did it using audio. So we drew the outline of Easter Island. And if you place him in a certain location on that map, it would play the sound of the waves literally from Easter Island- the sound that he used to hear. And then if you move him to some sort of floor plan of the British Museum and if you put it in there you heard the hubbub of the Life and Death gallery- this is what he hears. We used technology- this is an NFC chip. I'm actually working on this. We have a little chip on each of those locations- it's very simple really.

Kate: Simple but effective.

George: Yeah.

Kate: It makes people think more about the object outside the museum context, because when you're within a museum, objects often lose their context and impact.

George: Yeah. Well this is... I can point you towards that work that we did. It was called 'Small Museum' which is a week long, or two week long residency in Somerset House, and we had a sort of made up collection of objects that were from British Museum. There were 10 of them. And each day we would pick an object of focus, that we would make a project that sort of explored how the objects came into the museum.

Kate: Well that's interesting. You talked about those small items travelling. So like, obviously the Moai statue is so travelled.

George: Yeah. Oh yeah.

Kate: So yeah- back to my plates. How would you evolve these items like; could you see those things evolving? What I did was iterate these and they have their percentages on the back.

George: Percentages?

Kate: Yes, basically I'm Victor Frankenstein- the mad doctor, and I've taken stuff from each culture. And I've plotted it according to their original love story in the willow plates. It's basically the story of two lovers meeting, getting separated, meeting again, running away, dying and then getting reincarnated. It was actually a marketing plot. It's not actually got any real cultural significance.

George: Yeah.

Kate: So I'm taking the Hong Kong version, the Australian version and the Chinese version, and I've reiterated that. So it's sort of matched up.

George: So it's alphabetical order?

Kate: It's mostly alphabetical order- it's pretty obvious when you're looking at the plate. This is Hong Kong, because all the buildings and the ocean.

George: Yeah. Is that Sydney?

Kate: Unfortunately that's China. [laughing]

George: Well I would love to see you try and put that on a wall in the museum, because you know I deal with these things constantly. But. What you just said is so interesting. I would never never- I mean it's very difficult to communicate that level of detail, the tiny little... You know, it is very unsatisfying [not being able to see details].

Kate: It comes back to my whole question of intimacy and being able to understand the item.If I was able to talk to everyone who came through a museum about these items within a museum based context- then these items get so much more significance within the dialogue, the discourse between museums and people, but obviously you can't have that. So what's the next-best in between?

George: What's funny is that you 'can't have that dialogue' because that's what every museum strives for, except the big beasts who don't need to, you know. Every little museum is, I think, attempting to build community around its collection, You know, have the folks who visit it, actually engage some way to create a conversation. The museum's supposed to be a forum for people to come and discuss things, you know. So yeah I mean- one definition of a museum is as a forum of ideas.

Kate: Okay but then like... My question is that you say the big museums don't need it [intimacy]. But then the counterargument is, aren't they the one in the most need of intimacy?

George: Well it depends on how you define need I suppose. I think if you're looking at an imperial power, they don't need. intimacy isn't what they need. They just need more power.

Kate: Oh god, that's true!

George: I mean if you meet an individual who likes your stuff, that would be great you know. You can form an intimate relationship with an individual who works within the big beast but the chance for the layman to do that is pretty opaque. But if you go into the Fan Museum or the John Soane's Museum or the Museum of Toys, you can actually meet folks who do this stuff. So I think that's one of the best things about small museums. The bigger encyclopaedic ones... they don't need to...

Kate: Yeah.

George: That's a pretty cynical view... I mean you know I just think it could be a broader conversation if you want it to be.

Kate: I think that's it on my end for now.

George: Ok, great!